18 Responses to “PURIM IMAGERY IN REVELATION 11”

Mariano-
This is some great stuff. Most striking I think is the strong possibility you present that
the death/resurrection of the 2 witnesses may occur over a “triple Purim” holiday. I did some
hunting and I see some modern “triple Purim’s” occur in 2001, 2005, 2008, 2021 & 2025. Not to
get into datesetting, but it presents some intriguing possibilities about the timing of upcoming
events! (of course no fullfilment for 2001, 2005 and not possible for 2008 because the witnesses
aren’t here yet).

Placing the midpoint of the tribulation near a Purim (March) date is fascinating also because
any date in March, minus 3.5 years, gives a September-ish date.. which is very close to Rosh
Hashannah and the other Fall feasts.. this would probably please alot of people suspecting
Rapture and/or the trib-start around that time of the year.

Good job!
Regards,
Tony B

Left by Tony B. on May 3rd, 2007

Tony,

I had the same thoughts about the September Rapture date, and wondering when the “triple Purim” events happened in our calendar as well. Of course, if the AntiChrist changes the “times and seasons” as well, all bets may be off as far as ascertaining things from our current calendars.

God bless all the gang!

Left by Mike on May 3rd, 2007

Mike-
Indeed!

Also.. Dont forget that a 6th seal shifting event and it’s probable effect on the calendar. Isaiah said “the earth would sway and stagger like it was drunk” (forgive the inexactness of my quote). Since Israels feast holidays are often closely tied to the behavior of the sun and the moon, it stands to reason that we might not be able to even IMAGINE what the times and seasons will be like during those days if the behaviors of celestial bodies are different (from Earth’s context) than from what they are now.

Left by Tony B. on May 3rd, 2007

Tony & Mike,

As I can see, you have engaged mostly in a macro-vision of my study´s subject.

I think you should give place here to what our friend Doug Berner says in his book about the time of Gog´s invasion and defeat. He sees a period of at least 3 or 3 1/2 years preceding the beginning of Daniel´s 70th Week. If the latter was the correct date for the events involving Gog´s invasion of the land of Israel, that fact would place that momentous event in another Purim, seven years before of the Purim meshulash addressed in my study.

This would be most coherent with Mike´s latter research about the likeness between Hamon-Gog / Haman-Agag and the “vav connection”…

Now, about Antichrist changing times and seasons… This could only be possible AFTER the midpoint of D70W, and never before. Remember Revelation 13:5: “The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise his authority for forty-two months.”

That means the Antichrist won´t have any special authority before the midpoint of D70W, which is suggested in Revelation 11:7 with his drastic appearance.

By the other hand, do you really think our God would give so many clues about times and dates if He didn´t mean exactly the measures of time that can be calculated right now by looking at the Hebrew calendar? God is not a God of confusion but of order…

As for the years of the Gregorian calendar on which there are future Purim meshulash, I had noticed them before writing my study; it´s just I didn´t wanted to focus on date-settings, as Tony says. I only would add to those possible years listed by him (2021 and 2025) the year 2045.

Anyway, I do firmly believe that we should be focusing on details more related to human beings, training thus to acquire a micro-vison. As an example of what I´m saying here, I would recall that verse in the book of Esther which, by the way, I forgot to include in my study:

“And many people of other nationalities became Jews because fear of the Jews had seized them” (8:17)

This is an unmistakable hint of what will be occurring in the aftermath of Gog´s defeat by the powerful hand of God. It is also likely to point out to a massive and universal convertion to the infamous and deceptive “7 Noahide Laws” that manny rabbis and apostate Christians are promoting all around the world.

Just google on “noahide” and contemplate the monster making its first steps on a global scale…

God bless,

Mariano

Left by Mariano on May 3rd, 2007

Good follow up Mariano. As I was thinking about my previous posts, I thought to add some more comments that I forgot to talk about.

First- I have seriously considered for a few years now that D70W may likely be preceded by 1-3 years of real “trouble” (much worse than we have now) simply because it seems plausible to me that whoever is in charge of this crazy world system might try to force or stage a tribulation-like event. Such a maneuver would probably really get blogs, message-boards, church-lobbies and just about everybody else talking about “what happened to the pretrib rapture?”. Some might even lose faith. Persecution of the rest of us might even come into play at some point. But those who remain faithful and persevere would be *ready*.. and then wham, the 6th seal hits. —– I was alerted by someone (cant remember who, probably Dave L.) to Doug Berner’s work.. and I kinda see a similarity there even though his work comes at it from a different angle.

Second- The 6th seal is going to be major. It will do bad things to all calendars because the positions of the celestial bodies will all be different. I’m no astro-physicist, but it seems plausible also that the earth may possibly rotate at a different speed, or revolve around the sun at a different speed.. or that similar speed differences might occur also in our moon. Time-zones around the world will have to change. Days may be added or subtracted to the calendar to adjust for the changes. The AC may even have a part in enacting these changes from a political starting point in order to get us “back to normal”. I’m sure everybody will follow his great suggestions.

Here’s the kicker….. what if the calendar changes (that will likely take place because of the 6th seal) actually introduce things like new “triple Purim’s” in years where they are not now expected to occur? Example… pretend the 6th seal hits in 2010.. and because of calendar changes due to changes in celestial bodies, “triple Purim’s” now occur in 2013, 2020 (etc.. etc..) ? The truth is… because the 6th seal is so significant.. we may not even be able to imagine what things will be like on the other side of the 6th. it may be completely different. the Earth may be upside down or it may be only a few degrees off from where it is now. Spring may be in August and Christmas may be in May. We just don’t know what the Lord has planned in regards to that… but I do know that the Lord likes to use his creation to further his plan and show his glory rather than just making something happen. God could materialize water droplets right into the ground next to plant roots in order to feed the plants.. but he’d rather create elegant and beautiful weather systems, with evaporation, condensation, fronts, storms, clouds, whirlwinds and electricity. It’s the same with every aspect of creation. So.. when God decides that D70W is ready to begin, it may just be that creation will change somehow so that previously impossible events now become very possible. The “Long Day” comes to mind when thinking about past examples where God was not limited by time or physical laws. This may be one reason why datesetting is impossible

Left by Tony B. on May 4th, 2007

D70W? I’ve got to get used to using that. Is it like WD40?

Mike Bennett
SSP-TFM (Sixth Seal Pre-Trib Forum Member)

Left by Mike B. on May 4th, 2007

hehe. Mariano came up with that and I kinda liked it. This practice is actually a primitive form of digital encryption and compression. We humans are spending so much time with our machines that we are starting to act like them!

Left by Tony B. on May 5th, 2007

Mariano- If Doug Berner is correct (that 3 to 3.5 years before D70W the Magog events occur), then wouldn’t people who were conditioned into thinking that the Magog events start D70W would be in some real trouble? If those people were of that thinking, then they would be watching for the appearance of a ‘savior’ exactly at the midpoint of the actual D70W.. and Satan would have the perfect opportunity to counterfeit the 2nd advent. Those people would believe they were entering the millenium with the “Savior” but would actually be entering the “Great Tribulation” with the deceiver.

This is why the pretrib rapture is so important. Anyone who really trusts it cannot be deceived into falling into this kind of trap. Matt 25 (The parable of the virgins) says that ALL of the virgins were asleep, but at the sound of the shout, they awoke and only half of them were prepared and began to quickly ready themselves. Those “unready”, because of their lack of preparation, turned back to the world for assistance… not unlike the way Lot’s wife turned back to her worldly home. They all lost the chance to escape because they were too wrapped up in, and dependent on, the worldly system and loved it a little more than they should have. All other rapture theories besides pretrib leave the adherent vulnerable to a terrible trap in my opinion.

Left by Tony B. on May 5th, 2007

There are some interesting dynamics that result if the Magog invasion and the events of the 6th seal take place 3.5 years prior to the beginning of D70W.

As I propose, much of the world is set up for the conclusion that Armageddon has taken place and the worst is over. The Messiah must then come. Israel will jump to this conclusion very quickly.

However, the world may tire of Israel’s sense of superiority with its victory by God over Gog and Magog, the Temple being rebuilt, and the Jewish system of animal sacrifices reinstated. It is predictable that Israel might become quite arrogant in its own view of superiorty as head of the nations.

What then takes place in the time period approaching seven years after Magog and the 6th seal? Another war in the Middle East (Daniel 11:40 for example) out of which a world leader enters the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem and declares Himself to be God. This is another time when some people could falsely conclude that the Biblical war of Armageddon has just concluded and the real Messiah must show up. And guess what – a leader does just that!

For those who recognize that the ressurection / rapture event for the Church did take place at the time of the global earthquake of the 6th seal, and who believe that the repture begins the final seven year countdown (as many people do falsely believe) then there is a built in seven year event that sucks them into an unsuspecting trap.

All speculation of course, but interesting nonetheless.

I have discovered another person who advocates for a 10.5 year interval between the rapture and the second coming of Christ. Don Koenig writes about his views at http://www.thepropheticyears.com
Don Koenig writes: “I believe there could be 10 1/2 years from the rapture and beginning of the birth pains until the second coming. The rapture is likely to occur on the feast of Firstfruits which is the same day that the Lord rose from the dead. The seventh week of Daniel will start on the Feast of Trumpets 3 1/2 years later. Many Jews speak about there being 10 days of awe before the restoration of the kingdom (possibly 10 years, not 7 as most Gentiles teach). The last seven years does not begin until the sealing of the 144,000 Jews after the 6th seal judgment in Revelation.”

I have not tried to analyze a direct 3.5 year beginning to end correlation with the Jewish calendar between the dates of the Holy Feast Days in Tishri and the springtime Feast Days (Passover etc.) I know that several authors have tried and proposed different concepts. What is exactly 3.5 years to the date before Purim? Would that date fall on one of the Feast days? Mariano is the first one that I have encountered who has propsed Purim and he uses some logical arguments to support his view. The argumant would certainly be stronger if the beginning of the 3.5 year window started with one of the Jewish Feast days as the signing of the Covenant could well begin on the Feast of Trumpets, or Yom Kippur. I don’t think that it is mandatory to look for it to take place on a Jewish Holy Day but it would make sense. Just as I believe that the rapture is most symbolically portrayed by the Feast of Trumpets I look for the rapture every day and would certainly not be disappointed for it to come on a day other than Rosh Hashanah especially if that day was earlier than the next Feast of Trumpets.

Left by Doug on May 5th, 2007

You may not know it, but for years I was unbearably meticulous about spelling. I opposed to the American custom (or invention?) of acronyms; I was in that -as a writer- too a “Caballero Español”… But then I realized I was more like Don Quijote than the Cid, and that anyway it was useless and silly to stress such demands given that even in ancient times there were such displays in writing and the world stood the same.
Now, as for Tony´s last comment, I have some doubts about his view.

1. I don´t think a fake tribulation would be possible to be staged by any world leader before the 6th. Seal is broken. And after that happens, it would be even less thinkable. After the 6th Seal shaking of the earth, Gog´s hordes will invade Israel and will be supernaturally defeated by God. The God of Israel as portrayed in the Old Testament will be at that time the only God in the eyes of mankind -I mean, the only true God who can act in such a powerful manner. Remember Isaiah 64:4,

“Since ancient times no one has heard,
no ear has perceived,
no eye has seen any God besides you,
who acts on behalf of those who wait for him”

Of course, this scripture, as well as many other ones, will be misunderstood both by Jews and Gentiles. That´s why I stress the issue of the Noahide movements taking place around the world right now. And yeah, they´re using right now “blogs, message-boards and church-lobbies”; they´re even using national governments, for in 1991 president Bush Sr. signed a law which states that the 7 Noahide Laws are the foundations of civilization and of America´s founding fathers. This would be the most coherent in view of those recent researchs about the rosicrucian-masonic origins of the US. May be Masons are perfect Noahides, becuase they don´t believe in Jesus and instead talk of a Great Arquitect of the Universe, which from a Rabbinical perspective isn´t in violation of the first noahide law which prohibits idolatry (they consider Christians as idolaters)
See by yourself the whole text of the law signed by Bush Sr. here http://www.noahide.org/article.asp?Level=458&Parent=88).

2. We cannot say for sure that the 6th Seal event will result in changing of calendars. That´s only a possibility. By the other hand, there is a subtle contradiction in thinking that the times (and also the calendars) will change due to a catastrophic cosmic brought by the hand of God and at the same time to think it will be the Antichrist he who changes the calendars. For -I repeat what I said in my previous comment- the Antichrist won´t be in authority until the midpoint of D70W, and the 6th Seal would be appointed to happen at least seven years before the midpoint.
I sincerily believe we should re-read the Aramaic expression present in Daniel 7:25,

“Ve-iasbar lehashnaiah zimnin ve-dat” (rendered as “and try to change the set times and the laws” in the NIV).

“Zimnin” is the plural for “zman”. Let´s see what Strong´s Dictionary says about this word: “(Aramaic) from ‘zman’ (2165); the same as ‘zman’ (2165):–season, time.”

And now let´s go to Strong´s 2165: “from ‘zaman’ (2163); an appointed occasion:–season, time.”

And finally let´s head for Strong´s 2163, “zaman”: “a primitive root; to fix (a time):–appoint.”

Let´s go now to the Aramaic word “dat” and see what SD has to say about it: “(Aramaic) corresponding to ‘dath’ (1881); decree, law.”

And now let´s see Strong´s 1881: “of uncertain (perhaps foreign) derivation: a royal edict or statute:–commandment, commission, decree, law, manner.”

Now, in modern Hebrew, “dat” is the term used for “religion”, just as “ish dati” means “religiuos man”. This is understandable if what the modern usage is stressing is the concept of religion in its legal aspects.

I´m not going to develop here an alternative exegesis for Daniel 7:25, but I do seriously think that such re-read must be carried on in order to understand better what is ahead…

Left by Mariano on May 5th, 2007

Guys,

There is a most important passage found in Tractate Sanhedrin which I have in sight since a few months ago and I´d like to make you know about it. At that time, it made me think about Doug´s dating of Gog´s invasion and defeat and about the concept of “misunderstanding” he addresses in “The Silence is Broken!”. In a word, I believe the Talmud is a perverted version of prophecies uttered by OT prophets and so, also a reverse version of Christian teachings about the end times. That´s why it is dangerous for unawared and undiscerning Christians to rely on Jewish sources written after the rejection of our Lord by Pharisees and Jewish leaders.

Here is the passage I mention above:

“Our Rabbis taught: in the seven year cycle at the end of which the son of David will come-in the first year, this verse will be fulfilled: And I will cause it to rain upon one city and cause it not to rain upon another city; in the second, the arrows of hunger will be sent forth; in the third, a great famine, in the course of which men, women, and children, pious men and saints will die, and the Torah will be forgotten by its students; in the fourth, partial plenty; in the fifth, great plenty, when men will eat, drink and rejoice, and the Torah will return to its disciples; in the sixth, [Heavenly] sounds; in the seventh, wars; and at the conclusion of the septennate the son of David will come.” (Tractate Sanhedrin, 97a)

Left by Mariano on May 5th, 2007

Dear SSP-TFMs,

I wanted to share with you an interesting discourse on the Beast and False Prophet I just read today that I recommend you glance over, at the following link:

http://home1.gte.net/zzyzlane/write/essay/rev.html

I certainly don’t endorse everything he says, but I find his correlation interesting between the False Prophet and the false prophet Micah in the book of Judges.

Let me know what you think!
Doc Future

Left by Mike B. on May 5th, 2007

Thanks Mariano. Some questions:

>>1. I don´t think a fake tribulation
>>would be possible to be staged by
>>any world leader before the 6th.
>> Seal is broken.

Please elaborate why you think this is impossible. Honestly, I also think it would be extremely difficult, but for some reason I still cant rule it out. I’d like to know more about your thoughts.

>>And after that happens,
>>it would be even less thinkable.

Agreed 100% After the 6th, if no events are attempted to be staged by then, then all bets are off.. Any fakers will have missed their chance (if there ever was one). The unmistakable event of the 6th seal and what it means is recognized by all as Rev 6:12 clearly says.

>>2. We cannot say for sure that
>>the 6th Seal event will result in
>>changing of calendars. That´s
>>only a possibility.

Agreed!

>>By the other hand, there is a subtle
>>contradiction in thinking that the
>>times (and also the calendars) will
>>change due to a catastrophic cosmic
>>brought by the hand of God and at
>>the same time to think it will be the
>>Antichrist he who changes the
>>calendars.

Doesn’t Dan 7:25 use “think” or “intend”? Do we know if he actually completes the changing of times and seasons by his own authority? Logic would dictate that he could be just a rising political figure without full authority who perhaps introduces a bill in some world political body to alter calendars, whether successful or not. Are there other references that say he does change times and seasons or just that he “thinks to”? i’m really just playing devils advocate here to try to find deeper meaning if possible. I’m not really too stuck on what going on here.

>>the 6th Seal would be appointed to
>>happen at least seven years before the
>>midpoint.

I like this comment. it nicely provides for a period of recovery that the inhabitants of the Earth will surely need. I’ve never really liked the 6th seal on day X and D70W on day X+1.. it just never made sense to me. do we all think that there must be at least *some* time between the 6th seal and the beginning of D70W?

Thanks mariano
TB

Left by Tony B. on May 5th, 2007

Tony,

Before going on commenting subjects like Daniel 7:25, Antichrist authority, changing of times, etc. (which we can address in a next comment) I´d like to ask you -an to extend the question to our fellow travelers in this Forum:

Which concept has each of us about the coming tribulation?

I think clearing up our percetion on this matter would help us a lot in understanding each other´s point in many cases…

I´ll start off answering my own question.

I believe from a simple reading of the Scriptures that what we call “the great tribulation” (based on Revelation 7:15) is a period of 3 1/2 years starting with the midpoint of D70W and ending with the second coming of Jesus Christ in the clouds. There is a previous period of other 3 1/2 years, which I consider tribulational as well, but perhaps not with that intensity that deserves the adjective “great”.

While many Christians seem to consider the great tribulation as a catastrophic period for everyone -i.e., for righteous and unrighteous as well-, I don´t see it that way. In fact, the Greek word for “tribulation” is “thlipsis”, which derives from “pressure” (in a literal sense) and which in a figurative sense can be used for “affliction” and/or “persecution”.

Whose affliction? Whose persecution? I´ll quote the Scriptures in answer to this question:

“Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring—those who obey God’s commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus” (Rev. 12:17)

Here we have a glimpse of some people being persecuted. Are they many? And who are they? In my view, they are Jews, and this for two reasons: 1) they are “the rest of her (the woman protected in the wilderness) offspring”, and if the woman is in fact the remnant of phisical Israel, there cannot be in that group no one of Gentile descent; 2) the allusion to the “commandments og God” (mitzvot haElohim) in conjunction with the “testimony of Jesus” can only mean they are people observant of the precepts contained in the Law of Moses who at some point of D70W have come to faith in Jesus as their Messiah and Savior.

So we have two groups who will be persecuted, both of them composed of Jewish people. The first will be flying from Jerusalem and Judean areas at the midpoint of D70W; the second, who will repent and will come to faith in Jesus at the moment of the resurrection and catching up of the Two Witnesses, will have not fled from the hands of the Antichrist and his worshipers and so they will be left at their disposal. To them are addressed the warning and encouraging words found in Revelation 14:9-12:

“…´If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he, too, will drink of the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name.´ This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God’s commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.”

And then, in Revelation 15:2,3:

“…And I saw what looked like a sea of glass mixed with fire and, standing beside the sea, those who had been victorious over the beast and his image and over the number of his name. They held harps given them by God and sang the song of Moses the servant of God and the song of the Lamb…”

And finally, we have a glance of them (and may be some others, this time also from Gentile descent, I cannot affirm this) in Revelation 20:4:

“I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.”

So what we have here is a very specific affliction and a very specific persecution: they come as a result of faith in Jesus and for refusing to deny his name. The majority of this people (if not all of them) are Jewish. As for the rest of humankind -both Jewish and Gentile-, though they will be afllicted at the time of the seven bowls of God´s wrath and the coming of the Lord in the clouds, they will have not to suffer any pressure nor any persecution by the Antichrist. They will be marked with their full consent, for they will actually believe he is god (2 Thess. 2:4) They will be living in the Messianic era in thier mind, though it will actually be one in Disneyland style.

Here is what I believe about how the great tribulation will be. It will be a time for the saints to be afflicted and tested, many times to the point of death. The other views resemble too much to the accursed teachings of Tim La Haye and his gang, which have so much misguided millions of people for the sake of money and fame. May the Lord repay them as they deserve at the time of his coming!

God bless,

Mariano

Left by Mariano on May 5th, 2007

I think I agree with every point there, but I’d always thought that the “those who obey the testimony of Jesus” would be *anyone* who accepted Jesus, Jews and Gentiles alike. Concerning the “rest of her offspring” part, I guess I’d always resolved this in my mind that Gentile Christians are spiritual offspring so to speak because Jesus was a jew and Christianity sprang as an extension of Jesus spiritual heritage. I’m not saying stubbornly that I’m right or another view is not more correct than mine.. I guess I just never had any problems with thinking that way and that’s always the way I’ve thought about it. I’ve always thought that Christians and Jews are spiritual brothers with many commonalities in each’s history.

I’ve always thought that the rapture would not include unprepared or backslidden christians.. and that those would be the ones who would be asking after the rapture “Lord, open also to us”. I’d supposed that of these un-raptured, there would be some who were repentant and would suffer persecution right along with the repentant Jews even though the “Tribulation” was a special focus on the Jews and Israel. I know that some believe in once-saved-always-saved.. and.. that every Christian-will-be-raptured.. and that no-Christians-will-be-part-of-the-Tribulation-because-the-church-is-not-mentioned and all other sorts of things.. but these things just don’t feel right to me. I could certainly be wrong.

Seems to me that when Jesus was with us, he was pretty tolerent of those with much sin and human weakness.. but what really seemed to bug him was lack of faith. If every Christian is to be raptured no matter what.. then: either every Christian that ever was has had excellent faith.. or.. faith doesnt really matter in choosing who gets raptured. (neither of those seems right).

Do any christians get plunged into the tribulation? and if so, what of them? does the antichrist ignore them? or does he chase them around too, right along with the Jews?

I look forward to responses on this. Fun discussion!

Left by Tony B. on May 5th, 2007

Tony,

Jesus was born a Jew, and there is nothing to add to this well known fact. Now, the passage in Revelation 12:17 states clearly enough that the people that Satan is enraged at is offspring of the woman, and not of Jesus. As I told you before, the woman is a symbol of the phisical Israel, i.e., the descendants of the 12 tribes listed in Revelation 7. See Genesis 37:10 (anyway, I guess you know well this passage)…

I actually love Jews. I was about to get married with a Jewish woman in 1996. She was living in Israel (at Meggido and Eilat) when we were appart, in 1994, and have we got married we would have moved to Jerusalem to live there. After our relationship broke up, I studied Hebrew for seven years at Bnai Brith Buenos Aires, sharing classes and many personal things with many many Jewish friends (believers, atheists, religious, zionists, etc.). Now, Jews are not our brothers. Jews are brothers only of Jews in the flesh; and in the Spirit, they are brothers of Christians only if they believe and worship Jesus. Christian Zionism -regreatfully, so common among American Christians- is blatant heresy. That´s what I´d call to show favoritism, a thing God dislikes (1 Peter 1:17).

I do believe that anyone who converts wholeheartedly to the gospel of Jesus the Messiah and persevere with his faith has eternal life. But I also want to honestly understand what Revelation is revealing to us about that terrible period described in its chapters. I cannot trust Tim La Haye & Co. in this respect; I can only study the Scriptures at home, share them with my wife and discuss them with brothers like you and the rest in the Forum. And, of course, we must preach the gospel to everyone who wants to hear: Jew, Muslim, Catholic, atheist, Zionist, Anti-zionist, you name it…

The climate during D70W is gonna be more like a celebration than any other thing. It would be just like it was in Sodom (is not in vain that Revelation 11:8 compares Jerusalem with Sodom and Egypt). Those who will worship the Antichrist (for they will worship him wholeheartedly) will be allowed to sin as they always will have done. Only those who stand firmly on their faith in Jesus will be jailed, tortured and killed. And as I read in the Scriptures, they will be mostly (if not exclusively) Jews…

Jesus was not “with us”; he was with the Jews, with the “lost sheep of the house of Israel”. He came to us when yet in Heaven, sitting at the right hand of the Father. This is a sample of his amazing and blessed mercy. But I don´t think he was tolerant with sin. He was understanding and merciful, not “tolerant with sin”… This latter wrong concept is reigning today everywhere in apostate circles (youngsters precipitate into heresies like “Jesus rocks” and others just because heresies are born to please the flesh).

Well, I just don´t know wether all this is a satisfactory response to your last comment or simply a too passionate digression. But there is something I know for sure: we need to read Revelation without any preconceived idea; that´s the only way for God to show us what He has appointed for the coming days… Remember the final words in Revelation:

“I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.”

Let us be faithful, brother…

In Christ Jesus,

Mariano

Left by Mariano on May 5th, 2007

Dont worry, your response was great. I think we’re closer in views than it appears because I have some terminology shortcuts that I sometimes use a little to lazily. I did not mean “tolerant”‘ in the manner that he accepted sin, as society so often does today. That was really the wrong word to use. The understanding/merciful terms you used were much better and more relavant to my original thought. Same for the “with us”. Yes, he was physically with the Jews, but my meaning was more of “with human beings in the flesh”. It appears that I’m going to have to be a little more careful to get up to the level that many of you are at!

A question from my previous comment still remains..

>>Do any christians get plunged
>>into the tribulation? and if so,
>>what of them? does the antichrist
>>ignore them? or does he chase
>>them around too?

Thanks!
TB

Left by Tony B. on May 6th, 2007

Tony,

I celebrate our close views. And, of course, if by saying “tolerant” about Jesus you meant “understanding and merciful” then we are in a total agreement.

As for the expression “with us”, I think I should have had understood what you meant at once… Please, don´t think you have to be more careful with me. I´m not that “fragile” nor an ADL member, if you know what I mean…

Now, it remains unanswered the issue of Chritians getting plunged…

About that I cannot say too much. This is so because Revelation doesn´t says anything about the particular. It would seem that righteous Gentiles are depicted in Revelation 7 (the picture of the raptured Church) and after that… nothing else. When Gentiles appear again in Revelation 10, they are mentioned in a different sense, which I attribute to their depiction in Revelation 11:2.

Finally, in Revelation 14:6 it is said that the everlasting gospel will be preached to Jews as well as Gentiles. I link this portion of the zoom-in of chapter 14 to the first half of D70W (perhaps alluding to the Two Witnesses, who will be preaching the gospel to everyone in Jerusalem). Only that Revelation doesn´t seem to extend on the fate of Gentiles after that preaching. Here we can only speculate… However, I am inclined to think that this last preaching of the gospel to Gentiles will be in fulfilment of those words of Jesus in Matthew 24:14:

“And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.”

As for Christians specifically, I think you yourself may have a clue to it, for you have talked about the parable of the ten virgins. What does the Lord answer them? Well, those ones are words from the Lord himself… What more can I say?

Once Christians get plunged into the lasts days of this age, they could only be saved from eternal damnation by coming to a sound faith in Jesus (but could this be possible given the final words of Jesus to the five delaying virgins?). And, of course, if such thing could possible (I cannot say anything on this, but God knows), they should suffer death for Jesus name´s sake, for the Antichrist and their worshipers won´t forgive such “heresy”…

I hope I was clear enough about this subject. If not so, please feel free to continue asking about it and to offer your ouw views on the subject as well.

God bless you my brother,

Mariano

Left by Mariano on May 6th, 2007

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