6 Responses to “The Great Multitude”

Pete,
Does Chumney state why Gaster and Kieval equate the “last trump” with the “first day” of the year, or head of the year, Rosh Hashannah? I’d always heard there is a final trump blown on Rosh Hashannah, and this is what Paul must have been referring to. But Chumney, et. al., seem to be equating the entire Rosha Hashannah feast with the last trump.

Dave

Left by David L. on September 14th, 2007

Pete,

What about this verse for both the “First Trumpet” column and the “Last Trumpet” column on the “Heaven and/or Earth Shaken” row:

Heb 12:26 Then his voice shook the earth, but now he has promised, “I will once more shake not only the earth but heaven too.”

Left by David L. on September 15th, 2007

Dave,

Chumney does not elaborate on the views of Gaster and Kieval. I would simply say that the “last trump” does refer to the final trump blown on this feast day, but in a prophetic sense it refers to the future prophetic fulfillment of the day as a whole, which is permeated with allusions to both the rapture and the resurrection.

And now to your question which I have spent much time thinking about. In your book you view the word “last” in a literal sense and equate the “last” with the “once more” reference in Hebrews, which is a quote from Haggai. You go on to equate the “last trump” and the “once more” shaking of heaven and earth with the sixth Seal.

The problem that I have grappled with since I first read your book is that it appears to me that there is also a shaking of heaven and earth at the very end of the tribulation. Consider the following words of Jesus:

Matthew 24-
29. Immediately after the distress of those days “`the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
30. At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory.

Mark 13-
24. “But in those days, following that distress, “`the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light;
25. the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
26. “At that time men will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory.

Luke 21-
25. “There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea.
26. Men will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken.
27. At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

All of these statements of Jesus seem to be merely a quote of Isaiah 13-

10. The stars of heaven and their constellations will not show their light. The rising sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light.
11. I will punish the world for its evil, the wicked for their sins. I will put an end to the arrogance of the haughty and will humble the pride of the ruthless.
12. I will make man scarcer than pure gold, more rare than the gold of Ophir.
13. Therefore I will make the heavens tremble; and the earth will shake from its place at the wrath of the LORD Almighty, in the day of his burning anger.

Isaiah and Jesus both mention a complete blackout of all light sources and this blackout occurs not at the sixth Seal, but at the fifth Bowl, which is followed by a great shaking of the earth:

Revelation 16-
10. The fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and his kingdom was plunged into darkness…
17. The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and out of the temple came a loud voice from the throne, saying, “It is done!”
18. Then there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder and a severe earthquake. No earthquake like it has ever occurred since man has been on earth, so tremendous was the quake.

In my study I have tried to arrive at an honest interpretation of Hebrews 12:26 that does not conflict with what you say in your book, yet I cannot ignore the fact that the heavens and the earth are shaken at the end of the tribulation, AFTER the nations are gathered to Armageddon, which is long after the sixth Seal.

Yet IF there is a shaking of the heavens and the earth at the sixth Seal AND at the seventh Bowl, then how do we reconcile the “once more” statement of Hebrews 12:26? The only way that I can explain it is to say that perhaps Haggai and the writer of Hebrews were looking at the Day of the Lord as a far-distant and SINGLE event, and God was merely saying that when the Day of the Lord comes He will “once more” shake the heavens and the earth. However, once the prophetic microscope is applied through the book of Revelation we find that this “once more” is actually a shaking at the very beginning AND at the very end of the Day of the Lord, or perhaps this “shaking” is better viewed as a “process” of judgment that lasts throughout the Day of the Lord from the beginning to the very end.

As a side note, we must also be aware that this statement of “once more” is actually powerful ammunition that could be used by the Post-Trib camp to argue that the sixth Seal is actually the very same as the seventh Bowl, and the same as Isaiah 13:10-13, and the same as the “shaking of heaven and earth” that Jesus describes at the end of the Tribulation in the Olivet Discourse. Yet the Post-Trib view is superficial and fails the test of logic in many other ways as we both well know. In any case, we must be prepared to defend against it. Perhaps you see my situation here. I want to defend the ideas that you present in your book, yet I am also aware of how your work could be twisted in a way that you never intended.

But back to the question of Hebrews 12:26. I understand your argument that this “once more” can be viewed as fulfilled at the sixth Seal. We know that the earth is shaken at this time due to the phenomenon of the global “earthquake resurrection.” There is also evidence that the heavens are shaken as well based on Revelation 6-

13. and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind.
14. The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

Now here is another reference to these “falling stars” in Isaiah 34-

1. Come near, you nations, and listen; pay attention, you peoples! Let the earth hear, and all that is in it, the world, and all that comes out of it!
2. The LORD is angry with all nations; his wrath is upon all their armies. He will totally destroy them, he will give them over to slaughter.
3. Their slain will be thrown out, their dead bodies will send up a stench; the mountains will be soaked with their blood.
4. All the stars of the heavens will be dissolved and the sky rolled up like a scroll; all the starry host will fall like withered leaves from the vine, like shriveled figs from the fig tree.
5. My sword has drunk its fill in the heavens; see, it descends in judgment on Edom, the people I have totally destroyed.

The interesting thing about Isaiah, however, is that these “falling stars” are mentioned in an Armageddon context. This is further ammunition for the post-trib view if this verse is connected with the sixth Seal. Notice that Isaiah speaks of “all nations” and “all their armies” so it must be Armageddon and not Gog-Magog.

With both of these texts in mind (the sixth Seal and Isaiah 34) I now want you to consider another possibility which, unfortunately if true, does conflict with the conclusions that you arrived at in your book.

What if the “once more” statement of Hebrews 12:26 is fulfilled not at the beginning of the Day of the Lord, but at the end. In other words, if we look at my “Three Trumpets” table, what if Hebrews 12:26 belongs under the “Great Trump”? I’ll now try to explain how this is a possibility.

Looking at Hebrews 12:26 we see that Paul re-words the quote from Haggai and seems to be making an emphasis on “the heavens.”

Hebrews 12:26, “At that time his voice shook the earth, but now he has promised, “Once more I will shake not only the earth BUT ALSO THE HEAVENS.”

And in Haggai 2:6-7 the text actually reads “heavens and the earth” in the opposite order than is quoted by Paul:

Haggai 2-
6. “This is what the LORD Almighty says: `In a little while I will once more shake the heavens and the earth, the sea and the dry land.
7. I will shake all nations, and the desired of all nations will come, and I will fill this house with glory,’ says the LORD Almighty.

Now here’s what I think: Paul was emphasizing the nature of the end-times judgment. If you read the entirety of Hebrews 12 you will see that is what Paul is talking about, especially in v.23, “You have come to God, the judge of all men…”

When Paul says that God will shake “not only the earth but also the heavens” he is saying that at the time of the end God will judge mankind and ALSO the fallen angelic heavenly host. And when does this judgment of the heavenly host take place? I think that there are several stages to it, but the most important is at the very END of the Day of the Lord. Consider Isaiah 24-

20. The earth reels like a drunkard, it sways like a hut in the wind; so heavy upon it is the guilt of its rebellion that it falls–never to rise again.
21. In that day the LORD will punish the powers in the heavens above and the kings on the earth below.
22. They will be herded together like prisoners bound in a dungeon; they will be shut up in prison and be punished after many days.
23. The moon will be abashed, the sun ashamed; for the LORD Almighty will reign on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem, and before its elders, gloriously.

Here we have the shaking of the earth and the judgment of the “powers in the heavens above,” as well as the darkening of the sun and moon. I think these events all occur at the END of the Day of the Lord and not at the beginning.

During the Day of the Lord I do believe that there will be manifestations of fallen angels upon the earth, just as it happened before the flood as told in the book of Enoch. They will probably claim to be extra-terrestrials — our creators and our gods. I think that this begins with the sixth Seal where it is said that “the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind.” However, I do not think that this is when the fallen angels are judged. In other words, I can see that the earth is shaken at the sixth Seal, but I see much less evidence for “heaven” being shaken at the sixth Seal. The descriptions say that they fell “like” a fig tree is shaken, but this metaphor is not conclusive proof of the “heavens” being shaken. Perhaps the fallen angels even come to earth at this time voluntarily. This is all at the beginning of the Day of the Lord.

Now we must look at the middle of the 70th Week where we know that the fallen angels ARE “forced” out of heaven and “hurled to the earth.” We read about this “war in heaven” in Revelation 12:7-9, and it clearly comes after the midpoint of the 70th Week after the faithful remnant of Jews flees from the abomination of desolation. They are evicted but not necessarily judged or punished. The fallen angels are forced down to the earth, but I believe that they will still be allowed access to the atmosphere above the earth. In other words, during this time they are probably not confined to “ground transportation” and they will probably still be flying around and deceiving mankind into thinking that they are our gateway into the glorious “Galactic Confederation.”

The judgment and punishment of the fallen heavenly host does not come until the END of the Day of the Lord in connection with Armageddon and the seventh Bowl of Revelation. I think we can read about it in Isaiah 34:1-5,

1. Come near, you nations, and listen; pay attention, you peoples! Let the earth hear, and all that is in it, the world, and all that comes out of it!
2. The LORD is angry with all nations; his wrath is upon all their armies. He will totally destroy them, he will give them over to slaughter.
3. Their slain will be thrown out, their dead bodies will send up a stench; the mountains will be soaked with their blood.
4. All the stars of the heavens will be dissolved and the sky rolled up like a scroll; all the starry host will fall like withered leaves from the vine, like shriveled figs from the fig tree.
5. My sword has drunk its fill in the heavens; see, it descends in judgment on Edom, the people I have totally destroyed.

I think this relates to the sixth Seal only in the sense that the “falling stars” of the sixth Seal are only a FORE-SHADOWING of what is to come here in Isaiah at the very end. Notice that at the sixth Seal it only says that “the stars in the sky fell to earth,” whereas in Isaiah it says “ALL the stars of heaven will be dissolved” and “ALL the starry host will fall…”

Notice also (again) that Isaiah makes his prophecy within the context of Armageddon. God will come against ALL NATIONS and He will destroy ALL their armies. God will judge mankind and all the nations of the earth, but He will ALSO judge the fallen angels that have deceived the earth. We must especially appreciate verse 5, “My sword has drunk its fill in the heavens; see, it descends in judgment on Edom.”

What this tells me is that at this time God’s judgment against the fallen angels becomes complete (“My sword has drunk its fill in the heavens”), which comes at the same time, or just before, he judges the earth at Armageddon (“it descends in judgment on Edom”).

It is here at the end of the Day of the Lord, in connection with the seventh Bowl and the battle of Armageddon, where I think we must consider the possible fulfillment of Hebrews 12:26-29, because it is after this when we truly “receive,” and begin to rule over, our promised Messianic Kingdom:

26. At that time his voice shook the earth, but now he has promised, “Once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens.”
27. The words “once more” indicate the removing of what can be shaken–that is, created things–so that what cannot be shaken may remain.
28. Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe,
29. for our “God is a consuming fire.”

In conclusion, regarding Hebrews 12:26 that states “I will shake not only the earth BUT ALSO THE HEAVENS,” I think that there is clear evidence that the earth is shaken at the sixth Seal, but there is only limited evidence that heaven is shaken at this time, especially not in the sense of the judgment and/or punishment of the angels. On the other hand we have extensive evidence that BOTH heaven and earth are shaken at the end of the Day of the Lord, and the angels are judged and punished at this time as well.

So there you have it. I do see that there is a way to explain Hebrews 12:26 in a way that does not conflict with what you say about the “last trump” in your book. However, it leaves you open to some possible mischief coming from the post-trib side. On the other hand I think there is the distinct possibility that the “once more” of Hebrews 12:26 refers to a specific shaking of heaven and earth — a judgment of men and angels — that takes place at the very end.

Please consider what I have to say and I look forward to hearing back from you, or from any other members of the board.

God bless,

Peter

Left by Peter on September 26th, 2007

Pete,

Thanks for the comments.

We’ve talked before about the problem of the Rev. 16 shaking being in conflict with a “once more” shaking at the Rev. 6 sixth seal shaking. This is the mischief you are referring to being open to by post-tribbers.

With the Rev. 16 shaking, the trumpet voice of God will not be the cause of the shaking. I realize there is a voice in the temple that says “It is done!”, but the text doesn’t indicate the voice is the cause of the seventh bowl judgment shaking.

In addition, the seventh bowl judgment doesn’t mention any shaking of the heavens as the sixth seal does. Only a shaking on the earth is mentioned (with a possible exception being hailstones hitting the earth). Because of this, it doesn’t fulfill the requirements of Hebrews 12:26 shaking not only the earth, but the heavens too.

Basically, I make a distinction between (a) the “last trumpet of God”, his trumpet voice once more shaking the earth and the heaven, and (b) any other general shaking of the earth mentioned in Revelation. The sixth seal shaking is distinct because (a) it is a result of the voice of the trumpet, or the trumpet of God, one last time sounding, and (b) the shaking having an effect on both the earth and the heavens.

Dave

Left by David L. on September 30th, 2007

Dave and Peter,

What is the message of Hebrews 12:18-29?

That the destiny of believers is the unshakable kingdom of God.

There is a repeated emphasis on God’s speaking and man’s need to hear and obey. It reminds me of the repeated message in the letters to the churches in Revelation 2 and 3 “He that hath an ear, let him hear …” God spoke on earth to Moses and to the Israelites. God spoke through His Trumpeted Voice, through Moses, through His prophets, through His Written Word, through Himself in human form as Jesus, and through the Apostles. God will speak to man from heaven during the Day of the Lord through by His breaking His silence and initiating His judgments.

Verses 24 and 25 focus on Jesus in His role as mediator and the contrast of God’s voice to man on the earth versus His voice from heaven. This is the Age of Grace when Christ shares the throne of God, sitting at the right hand of God waiting for His enemies to be made His footstool. As dynamic and frightening it was when God revealed Himself at Mt. Sinai, it will be much more terrible when God reveals Himself again by speaking to the inhabitants of the earth.

This once more aspect of God’s voice (verses 26 and 27) points to God’s breaking His silence through a great shaking of the earth in a dymnamic event (6th seal, Ezekiel 38:19-20). But the emphasis of Hebrews 12:27-29 is not on a singular event such as the 6th seal, as horendous and significant as it is, but on the beginning and continuation of a process which does not stop until everything that can be shaken in judgment is shaken out of existence. This shaking of earth and heaven caused by God’s voice does not stop with the conclusion of the earthquake of the 6th seal but continues throughout the Day of the Lord. In the context of Hebrews 12 it is even possible that that it includes the concept of the replacement of the old heaven and earth with the new heaven and earth.

The Day of the Lord begins with a great shaking of the earth accompanied by a shaking of heaven and ends with an even greater shaking of both heaven and earth. It is bracketed by a great attention getter introduction and ends with the greatest shaking event at Christ’s second coming. There are prophecies which deal with the initial event and others which apply to the latter event. Hebrews 12 applies to the entire Day of the Lord process as God’s heavenly shofar sounds again.

Doug

Left by Doug on October 2nd, 2007

Doug,

Solid input. That’s a more broad perspective that I hadn’t really considered.

It reminds me of II Peter 3 in which Peter says the day of the Lord will include the heavens passing away with a great noise and the elements melting with a fervent earth, and the earth burning. This happens during the “day of the Lord”, probably at the end.

Dave

Left by David L. on October 2nd, 2007

Something to say?

You must be logged in to post a comment.